Engine Pinging

[Daddyg83]

Hi there, I bought a Tacoma SR5 with V6 in 2020 and it has 16,000 miles. I have noticed something that is happening when the engine is warm, and I am doing stop and go driving. Between about 15 - 45 mph, and especially when the truck is changing gears, I am getting a pinging sound / spark knock upon acceleration. I run gas, 87 octane in this , and I've heard others say that they used 91 octane to deal with this issue. I've read something similar from others but still can't find a reason, I live in texas amd this summer have been extremely hot dont knkw if it has anything to do with it but its a data, going to the dealer without check engine light on in my opinion is not a good idea, they'll start proposing everything but nothing accure unless I find the unicorn of honest mechanic in dealerships. Already cleaned throttle body, MAF etc. Any help is more than welcome thanks in advance.

 

[drizzoh]

How are you monitoring the pinging?

It's pretty brutal in Phoenix too but I haven't specifically noticed any pinging with my truck (when I was on 87 or now 91). The Atkinson cycle engine does Atkinson cycle engine things all the time, it's very chattery. There is a good chance that is what you're hearing, unless you have a monitor for the knock retard and can confirm that is what it's doing.

 

[Daddyg83]

How are you monitoring the pinging?

It's pretty brutal in Phoenix too but I haven't specifically noticed any pinging with my truck (when I was on 87 or now 91). The Atkinson cycle engine does Atkinson cycle engine things all the time, it's very chattery. There is a good chance that is what you're hearing, unless you have a monitor for the knock retard and can confirm that is what it's doing.

I don't have a monitor but I believe I have heard the pinging

 

[Tomahawk Dog]

I would get close to empty and find a good fuel station.
Many "named" stations buy the cheapest fuel they can get,.... so do drivers.

Some hate the term Top Tier Fuels,..... but it is what it is,.... just like oils, fuels either have or have not in the additive department.
Try it and see if it makes a difference before spending money at a shop/dealer.

You may have to run a few tanks to clean out deposits (if you have any) you do not need to run premium either.

Top Tier simply means the fuel has the detergents and chemical make-up recommended by the manufacture.
Yes, Toyota recommends using a Top Tier Fuel.

Find your nearest station,..... it will not hurt and may solve your problem.
https://stationfinder.toptiergas.com/

 

[Daddyg83]

I would get close to empty and find a good fuel station.
Many "named" stations buy the cheapest fuel they can get,.... so do drivers.

Some hate the term Top Tier Fuels,..... but it is what it is,.... just like oils, fuels either have or have not in the additive department.
Try it and see if it makes a difference before spending money at a shop/dealer.

You may have to run a few tanks to clean out deposits (if you have any) you do not need to run premium either.

Top Tier simply means the fuel has the detergents and chemical make-up recommended by the manufacture.
Yes, Toyota recommends using a Top Tier Fuel.

Find your nearest station,..... it will not hurt and may solve your problem.
https://stationfinder.toptiergas.com/

Thanks for replying, I'll try that, it makes sense. I dropped it today at the dealership and they couldn't find anything because in theory nothing is wrong also was trying to see if it had any recall (fuel pump) but nothing so I'll try what u said but I hate not knowing the real cause

 

[djw.pro]

Suggest you run premium. These engines are high compression and love octane. Yes, the knock sensor’s will retard timing, but sometimes it’s not that great for the engine. I know this as I monitor timing, knock, and knock learn.

 

[Daddyg83]

Suggest you run premium. These engines are high compression and love octane. Yes, the knock sensor’s will retard timing, but sometimes it’s not that great for the engine. I know this as I monitor timing, knock, and knock learn.

Appreciate your feedback, I hope that knocking doesn't damage the engine

 

[djw.pro]

Appreciate your feedback, I hope that knocking doesn't damage the engine

You should be fine, it’s designed to kill all power if it gets too bad. Clean your fuel system too. Suggest either Redline S1 or BG44k. Good to run a bottle every 5k to keep injectors and combustion chambers clean.

 

[jeepnik]

Before buying into the "Top Tier" BS, I made gasoline for over twenty years, do yourself a favor and buy some fuel system cleaner and run a bottle of that through. Regardless of the "Tier" of gasoline (they all pretty much meet minimum government standards) when you run it throguh if you don't notice an improvement either it's all in your head or it's time to put it on a diagnostic machine. Not just a code reader.

 

[djw.pro]

Before buying into the "Top Tier" BS, I made gasoline for over twenty years, do yourself a favor and buy some fuel system cleaner and run a bottle of that through. Regardless of the "Tier" of gasoline (they all pretty much meet minimum government standards) when you run it throguh if you don't notice an improvement either it's all in your head or it's time to put it on a diagnostic machine. Not just a code reader.

You may find this shocking, but the 3.5 responds as high as 96 octane particularly in the summer with hot intake air temps. I actually run e25 in mine, to maximize timing.

 

[jeepnik]

Ethanol laced fuels look really good at first. They are insidious and create problems later. Ethanol was another of the govenrnment (read politicians who have no scientific or mechanical knowledge) requirements. It's purpose wasn't the extension of fuel supplies and less expensive fuel (I've seen the E blends cost more). No, it was to support the corn industry.

While not as bad as as some of the government madated changes to motor fuel. Remember good old MTBE that came straight from DC and then when it was proven to be a carcinogen and in most underground water supplies the politicians pulled out the old "it wasn't me, it was the other guys" excuse and put it back on the Refiners.

Or rmember TEL (lead for short) that did all sorts of great things for engines. The government madated it's removal because was a health concern. Yes, in it's raw state it is highly toxic, so are a lot of other chemical components. But they had a really hard time finding how this now oxidized lead caused health issues or polluted water systems. Heck compared to MTBE is wasn't even a blip on the radar ageter 50 or 60 years compared to the two or three for MTBE.

So, burn E25, if you want, I'll stick with the least ethanal available. Oh, and where do you find E25? All I see is E20. I know Brazil used an E-25 blend in the first gas shortages in the 70's. With leaded fuel requirements it ws an unmitigated disaster.

 

[Daddyg83]

Ethanol laced fuels look really good at first. They are insidious and create problems later. Ethanol was another of the govenrnment (read politicians who have no scientific or mechanical knowledge) requirements. It's purpose wasn't the extension of fuel supplies and less expensive fuel (I've seen the E blends cost more). No, it was to support the corn industry.

While not as bad as as some of the government madated changes to motor fuel. Remember good old MTBE that came straight from DC and then when it was proven to be a carcinogen and in most underground water supplies the politicians pulled out the old "it wasn't me, it was the other guys" excuse and put it back on the Refiners.

Or rmember TEL (lead for short) that did all sorts of great things for engines. The government madated it's removal because was a health concern. Yes, in it's raw state it is highly toxic, so are a lot of other chemical components. But they had a really hard time finding how this now oxidized lead caused health issues or polluted water systems. Heck compared to MTBE is wasn't even a blip on the radar ageter 50 or 60 years compared to the two or three for MTBE.

So, burn E25, if you want, I'll stick with the least ethanal available. Oh, and where do you find E25? All I see is E20. I know Brazil used an E-25 blend in the first gas shortages in the 70's. With leaded fuel requirements it ws an unmitigated disaster.

Good article but I'm confused. What do u recommend

 

[djw.pro]

Ethanol laced fuels look really good at first. They are insidious and create problems later. Ethanol was another of the govenrnment (read politicians who have no scientific or mechanical knowledge) requirements. It's purpose wasn't the extension of fuel supplies and less expensive fuel (I've seen the E blends cost more). No, it was to support the corn industry.

While not as bad as as some of the government madated changes to motor fuel. Remember good old MTBE that came straight from DC and then when it was proven to be a carcinogen and in most underground water supplies the politicians pulled out the old "it wasn't me, it was the other guys" excuse and put it back on the Refiners.

Or rmember TEL (lead for short) that did all sorts of great things for engines. The government madated it's removal because was a health concern. Yes, in it's raw state it is highly toxic, so are a lot of other chemical components. But they had a really hard time finding how this now oxidized lead caused health issues or polluted water systems. Heck compared to MTBE is wasn't even a blip on the radar ageter 50 or 60 years compared to the two or three for MTBE.

So, burn E25, if you want, I'll stick with the least ethanal available. Oh, and where do you find E25? All I see is E20. I know Brazil used an E-25 blend in the first gas shortages in the 70's. With leaded fuel requirements it ws an unmitigated disaster.

Older vehicles reacted very poorly to the ethanol. This is no longer the case. Injectors, seals, pumps, etc. Ethanol runs cooler and cleaner than regular fuel. New plastics are designed to handle the fuel. We are already running 10%. I run 93 with 2.5 - 3 gallons of e85.

It does have its issues should not be stored for long periods but the mix is low and I like how everything looks on my timing, knock sensors, learned corrections. The engine runs best at this octane level. Mileage is still good for the truck. What you are loosing in fuel density is more than made up for in octane. Allowing the high compression engine to advance to max timing. It is 11.8 compression, remember. Where I’m at in the south it’s at a good amount of stations.

 

[jeepnik]

Yea, when I was a kid I used to tank blend racing fuel from SoCal Racing Fuels with premium in the mistaken thought it would make my Chevy Nova turn better times at Brotherhood. Funny thing is when I got a degree in chemistry and started making gas for a living I found out I was only deluding myself and burning throguh my meager funds faster.

Hold on, E85 is a lot different than E25. Question still exists where do you find E-25?

 

[djw.pro]

Yea, when I was a kid I used to tank blend racing fuel from SoCal Racing Fuels with premium in the mistaken thought it would make my Chevy Nova turn better times at Brotherhood. Funny thing is when I got a degree in chemistry and started making gas for a living I found out I was only deluding myself and burning throguh my meager funds faster.

Hold on, E85 is a lot different than E25. Question still exists where do you find E-25?

I mix it myself. Mileage is still good too. E25 is about 96 octane. I aim for 20 - 25% mix. About 3 gallons and the rest 93. Mixing too much is a problem for the fuel pump under WOT. Over 35% may crash the pump and potentially cause you to run lean. Just need to be careful and don’t overfill.

In my twin turbo sports car with WMI, I also run e35 - 40. Basically, e85 (roughy 105 octane) with the right setup is a great way to make race fuel for cheap. It’s currently $2.67 a gallon in the Atlanta area.

I also run a bottle of Redline S1 every 4k miles just to keep things as clean as possible, BG44k is great stuff too but can contribute to fuel dilution.

Oh, and if anyone is interested. On the Tacoma 3.5, 30 degrees of advance under WOT is about as good as it gets. I would not be doing this if I did not log and actually see what the ecu is doing.

E85 Calculator Ethanol Mix

www.morepowertuning.com

 

[bonifacio]

Oh, and if anyone is interested. On the Tacoma 3.5, 30 degrees of advance under WOT is about as good as it gets. I would not be doing this if I did not log and actually see what the ecu is doing.

What is it at from factory? Using VFTuner and tuning it yourself?

 

[djw.pro]

What is it at from factory? Using VFTuner and tuning it yourself?

I’m OTT tuned, but I was logging before and after the tune to see what’s up. Injen intake is great too.

 

[bonifacio]

I’m OTT tuned, but I was logging before and after the tune to see what’s up. Injen intake is great too.

When you say 30 degrees advanced, safe to assume that's timing?
Is that 30 degree on OTT or did were you able to get a modifiable OTT file?

 

[djw.pro]

When you say 30 degrees advanced, safe to assume that's timing?
Is that 30 degree on OTT or did were you able to get a modifiable OTT file?

Correct, timing. Timing is bumped up a bit when tuned. OTT does not do custom fuel tuning. As mentioned, not really needed. You need a supercharger to make power on this motor. Stock, the engine still responds to higher octane for max timing minimum learned correction.

 

[bonifacio]

Correct, timing. Timing is bumped up a bit when tuned. OTT does not do custom fuel tuning. As mentioned, not really needed. You need a supercharger to make power on this motor. Stock, the engine still responds to higher octane for max timing minimum learned correction.

Been a while since I flashed. So OTT maps still retain learning and adjust for higher octane or one would have to contact OTT for an updated 91 / 93 map?

 

[Tomahawk Dog]

So, this "Tuning" is more than Automatic Transmission related as take the conversation?
Just curious as with any Pro's there must be some Con's.

I have a Manual Transmission so you cannot tune that!
But the engine "tune" does have gains AND losses. Correct?

 

[bonifacio]

It's just a map that's considered tuned. The map itself is finely tuned to be more efficient and optimize the factory map for desired results.

Power delivering gets smoothed out.
HP/Torque gains throughout your RPM's.
Throttle response is a big one. It's more responsive. Got rid of the delay. There's also options to change how sensitive it is.
Air/fuel ratios get adjusted.
Torque control.
Ignition timing.
Can be reset and has octane learning.
Speed limiter delete for whatever reason.
Alternator output.
Idle control.
It won't improve when it shifts, but does improve rev matching and how it behaves.
Might not sound like much, but it makes the truck a whole new vehicle.

Con's: It costs money. Will be a more enjoyable ride, so you might drive it more.

 

[djw.pro]

So, this "Tuning" is more than Automatic Transmission related as take the conversation?
Just curious as with any Pro's there must be some Con's.

I have a Manual Transmission so you cannot tune that!
But the engine "tune" does have gains AND losses. Correct?

No looses. Yes, the tune is well worth it. You gain midrange and low end power. Throttle mapping is improved. Engine absolutely runs better. They actually don’t have access to the TCU, but for autos the shift points are better. OTT is the most popular and refined, imo. Check their website.

 

[jeepnik]

Ah, but if octane were the whole story. While octane can be related to pre-ignition issues, what's important about an energy source is the amount of energy per volume. In liquid fuels it's measred in BTU's (British Thermal Units). Ethanol is rated at about 76,000 btu's. E85 is rated at 90,000 btu's while gasoline is rated at 1250,000. Simply put there is considerable more energy to do work in gasoline than in ethanol diluted fuels.

What this means is that you are going to need more fuel to move a vehicle over a given course and speed with ethanol diluted fuels than gasoline. Got to love physics and chemistry, they are so comforting.

 

[djw.pro]

Ah, but if octane were the whole story. While octane can be related to pre-ignition issues, what's important about an energy source is the amount of energy per volume. In liquid fuels it's measred in BTU's (British Thermal Units). Ethanol is rated at about 76,000 btu's. E85 is rated at 90,000 btu's while gasoline is rated at 1250,000. Simply put there is considerable more energy to do work in gasoline than in ethanol diluted fuels.

What this means is that you are going to need more fuel to move a vehicle over a given course and speed with ethanol diluted fuels than gasoline. Got to love physics and chemistry, they are so comforting.

Surprisingly still getting 25+ on the highway at 65. The mix is not that high. Drops down to around 19 at 75 and up.

 

[bonifacio]

Surprisingly still getting 25+ on the highway at 65. The mix is not that high. Drops down to around 19 at 75 and up.

Just to confirm, that's kilometers right?

 

[djw.pro]

Just to confirm, that's kilometers right?

No, miles. 75 - 85 mph vs 55 - 65, back to back. I generally tank average 18 - 19 mpg.