Brake Upgrades...

[SeaMac]

Since purchasing my Tacoma in 2016 I have discovered the brakes could use a bit of upgrading. This is my second Toyota pickup the first being a purchased new 1983 long bed 4x4 which had horrible brakes.

While I do not necessarily have any issue with drum rear brakes I would convert to rear discs if it was an economical option. That said I am only looking to upgrade the stock brake configuration with better components. I have a 2.5" lift, 17" rims with larger and heavier tires therefore rolling weight has increased.

I have done quite a bit of research on the subject and have for the moment opted for Stop Tech slotted rotors with Stop Tech 4x4/Towing pads. I'm still waiting on the rotors before I swap out the OEM rotors. While conducting my research I ran across Power Stop brakes, I honestly had never heard of them before. Power Stop appears to garner excellent reviews and they also offer both slotted as well as drilled and slotted brake rotors. What Power Stop offers that apparently no one else does is finned brake drums, there is significant heat reduction using finned brake drums so I can only imagine they are an improvement over OEM.

A bit of background, my Tacoma sees 4x4 use every weekday for work and considerable recreational 4x4 use too. I also tow frequently being extremely mindful to never exceed 75% of towing capacity so brakes are important to me. I will in the near future be replacing all rubber brake hoses with braided stainless and hopefully addressing the E-brake cable tension brought on with my OME BP-51 2.5" lift.

If anyone has experience with Power Stop brakes I would appreciate learning your thoughts. If anyone has successfully addressed E-brake cable tension after installing a lift kit I appreciate learning some ideas in that regard too. Thanks...

 

[SeaMac]

Okay, so no one has upgraded their brakes without going the rear disc conversion route?

 

[XxMagpulxX]

Im waiting to wear out my factory stuff first. I think I will be going Power Stop cross drilled/slotted rotors when I do eventually replace the front discs. I think its the Z36 kit.

 

[SeaMac]

Im waiting to wear out my factory stuff first. I think I will be going Power Stop cross drilled/slotted rotors when I do eventually replace the front discs. I think its the Z36 kit.

What about Power Stop's finned drums have you considered them as well? Years ago Buick made aluminized finned drums which obviously never rusted Power Stop uses a different coating on theirs to prevent rust. I know the front discs bear the majority of stopping duties but for towing an upgrade for the drums might provide an advantage at least for heat dissipation.

 

[XxMagpulxX]

I wasnt aware that they made those. I will have to look into them.

 

[SeaMac]

Here ya go...

PowerStop Finned Brake Drums

 

[WarFabArmor]

Powerstop makes great stuff. Used them on a few rigs, and they are to trucks what EBC is to motorcycles.
For towing specific applications, I like the slotted setup. Im not much for drilled, as they tend to crack between the holes, but i realize getting JUST slotted is super hard.
For offroad use, I do not like drilled or slotted, especially if the slotted vents do not carry to the edge. They tend to trap dirt and debris and create hell geting stuck in calipers or pads and making a hell of a racket. Vents tend to pack in, eliminating their use, and creating potential braking issues. For a mixed use rig, I would just use a standard rotor.
Upgrading to steel lines will be a drastic improvement over the factory set up. No need to overlook the rears. In a drum setup the rear quality and setup makes a huge difference in pressure, pedal feel, and feedback, although that is generally "felt" in the front.

Without going crazy on budget with different calipers, different rotor sizes, treated metals, and playing with pad composition, powerstop is generally your safest option. z36 especially over the z23.
HTH

 

[XxMagpulxX]

I always wondered what the effects would be with slotted/drilled when you play in the mud. Maybe I will stick to factory. I dont need anymore headaches. Im still trying to track down the vibration in the front. I have a feeling its the tires.

 

[SeaMac]

I have used drilled and slotted rotors on numerous performance on-road and off-road vehicles I've built over the years and quite few swamp toys as well. All of these were run hard and fast never once did I experience cracking or spider webbing around the drilled holes. This could be due to quality rotors, proper setup, maintenance and cleaning. Currently every rally racing vehicle and off-road racing truck I've seen uses vented, drilled and slotted rotors at all four corners. While cracking might be possible I can't see it as common but again with quality parts.

As for the slots, it has always been my understanding the purpose they serve is to allow space for pad material to disperse extending both pad and rotor life by removing pad material which is abrasive and assisting with cooling.

I can also see where crap could accumulate in a rotor's vents, cross-drilled holes, slots even packing up in the calipers. But, proper care and maintenance means routinely cleaning a trucks underside after off-roading. My Tacoma essentially lives off-road every day and it's underside gets pressure washed every weekend.

Finned drums are not new and prior to rear discs have been commonly used as a truck's rear brakes. They absolutely help with heat dissipation mitigating brake fade. They too also need to be properly cared for, maintained and cleaned as with anything of a mechanical nature.

The matter of braided brake hoses is an argument as old as Ford vs Chevy, chocolate vs vanilla. Quality rubber brake hoses if new offer the same feel and function as braided. It's when time comes into play where braided have the edge. Still though there is a pliable rubber or Teflon lining within the braided outer covering which too breaks down with age. Some argue the braid is a double edged sword since you can't visually inspect the actual hose under the braid. My purpose for using braided hoses is for durability and added protection not pedal feel or function.

 

[WarFabArmor]

Race cars and off-road competition vehicle rarely use the same rotors race after race for 50k+ miles. A lot of that is pad design and material as well. Performance and longevity are not two things that generally go hand in hand. They aren't mutually exclusive, but for road vehicle applications,longevity is a far bigger concern than a competitive vehicle. Hell, just looking at bicycle brakes, you can see that they tend to crack between drilled openings for guys that downhill race. It's not like it's a foreign concept.
Debris in the brakes is less an issue after you are home vs when you are out. I can list several outings where we had to stop and dislodge debris from brakes. Rocks destroying brake pads or rotors sounds miserable and creates weird braking characteristics (losing half a pad with another 100+ miles of dirt at speed gets funky).
As far as braided lines, there are numerous tests to show that in a repeated high heat use, braided lines will maintain a more consistent brake lever feel vs a solely rubber line. The Kevlar lined SS hoses are some of the most consistent and in most application see less than 10% of the brake fade of a standard/stock line sees.

 

[WarFabArmor]

Another thing to keep in mind specifically as it applies to cross-drilled rotors is the cooling effect. Most people see the cross drilled slotted rotors and think oh they must run a ton cooler, and they do run cooler, but not to the extent most people imagine. The problem is also in the design of where the cross drills are on the rotor and the clamping face of the pad. It has to work in unison otherwise you get some sections that are cooler and some sections that are warmer because the cross drills are not in an engineered spot to work well with the pads or calipers that you are running. It needs to be a consistent setup. The other thing to consider is inadequate cooling. Or a better way to say that might be incorrect cooling. Running your brakes down a hill coming down a trail heating them up and really starting to get the brake system working, and then dunking it into a stream that's 45°, is going to create a drastic heat exchange. As we all know metal tends to move around as it's heated up and cool down. So having these extra cooling ports from the cross drilled creates a scenario where certain sections are going to cool faster than other sections. This variance will create a situation where the metal wants to move differently, therefore creating a situation that is ideal for cracking. Also the design of the cross drill is of note as well. If it is a straight in 90° through hole, you tend to get a ton of bite, where through the pads a little bit faster, and increase heavy temperature swings. If it is a chamfered hole, that is built into the casting, you tend to get a little bit less of a bite difference, and again less of an increase in pad wear. then there is the dimples instead of a through hole, and those will also act a lot differently. Keep in mind that not all race cars run drilled and slotted rotors all the time. Some will run a different style break rotor, and pad or caliper setup, for qualifying, for testing and tuning, for different track conditions, for different temperatures, what have you. Just because someone runs super aggressive drilled and slotted rotors for qualifying, and on display on the paddock, it does not mean that that is what they are going to run in the race. Long hour heavy abuse race teams, generally run a less aggressive rotor, because the pads and rotors don't make it through the full race. Being super aggressive in every corner is less beneficial than not having to make a maintenance change in the pits. Consistent average speed is more important than burst speed like you need in qualifying. There is a lot of stuff that plays into it other than, well the race cars do it. Most people won't push their vehicle close to its abilities, let alone beyond. Most folks hate excessive brake dust, loud break noises, or poor cold condition breaking characteristics. All of that is extremely common for race vehicle parts. so justifying a street vehicle that goes out and plays needing parts that a race car runs, is a bit of an awkward comparison. I think understanding the full dynamic of how everything works together, why they change things when they change things, and the purpose of specific pieces and designs for what they want is far more helpful than generalizing this must be the best because so and so runs it. HTH

 

[SeaMac]

Agreed, I had spares for most bits on the performance vehicles and I'm not disputing what you have said, in my experience alone and use in my geographical area has shown no cracking or negative effects from drilled or slotted brakes. As for downhill racing on a bicycle, the only hills we have around here that would suffice are those created by landfills, I'm not sure anyone wants to race down those, the odor alone would make it less than appealing.

There also isn't much rocky terrain to travel on here either, mostly dirt some with clay for mud and a whole LOT of sugar sand. And like I said I do a bunch of towing I'm trying to find the best balance for both purposes without doing a rear disc conversion which is neither simple nor cheap.

 

[SeaMac]

Replying to your last post. Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't you mostly referencing NASCAR?

A friend who I've known since we were both three is currently a self-sponsored rally race driver, owning/driving a Euro-spec Ford Fiesta. Vented, drilled, slotted all 4 corners all the time. He can't recall knowing any other setup, he's been at this for 27 some odd years.

He and I have been to two Dakar races and enumerable off-road truck races, many with Trophy Trucks and a lot of S.C.O.R.E. class races. As far as I can recall going back decades the pre-event vehicle displays showed all trucks, vented, drilled, slotted at all 4 corners. Where it is true during these types of races they have chase/support trucks that can handle mobily what a NASCAR pit crew can do they also by nessecity choose components that will last the circuit. Heavy repairs in the mud isn't their goal or desire.

I won't argue that a paved track class race vehicle is prepared for the specific event, weather, track itself and race stage with a few semi-trucks stocked with whatever is needed to be competitive backing up the vehicle and crew. The same is only partially true as it applies to off-road racing.

Braided hoses is an altogether different argument, they make chocolate and vanilla for a reason....

 

[WarFabArmor]

We've raced class 10, class 11, class 1, as well as pretty much every "local" dirt race around the greater southern Nevada area (lots of racing with keysar racing). We work with folks on team Honda circuit racing as well as some 'grass roots' race teams for tarmac racing ( a lot of vw based folks there in SLC area) We've run dimpled. Slotted. Drilled. Combination of above. Smooth face. We've shattered pads, split rotors, blown apart a pad/caliper assy with a jammed rock, shattered rear drums (granted they were sticking out waiting to get smashed, but was part of the set budget for the event, poor tube placemtn meant a heavy offset and exposed brake). We've gone from drilled slotted and dimpled rotors for qualifying and gone to a simple slotted and lighter pad for event. On sort we've never not run drilled rotors. We've also changed them every or every other race. Some were showing signs of cracks. Others had gouges in them from stuck debris grinding away for miles and miles. We've finished races with no driver front brakes having grenaded the pads with stuck debris.
Again. Not saying they don't have a place. But comparing to a street truck and scenarios it will be in, the pros/cons don't weigh out the same.
Also keep in mind most folks will kick abs control and think they need better brakes when really they need more traction.

 

[WarFabArmor]

As far as off track vs track racing. You may not change individual parts and pieces to dial the setup like on track, but you definitely dial the car differently. Different tires, prop valves, masters, etc. All dependant on what you're running and what you're willing or not willing to change.

 

[SeaMac]

That's awesome, wish I had your job! Here's precisely what's driving my need for improved braking here in Florida. I work as a GPS Tech or what Topcon calls us Pointmen. I spend my weekdays off-road in 4hi. I also routinely tow a UAV in an enclosed trailer that depending upon what sensor is attached can cost $$$$$$. The UAV is not mine I'm just responsible for it. I have noticed the brakes on my 2016 aren't that great but certainly better than those on my old 1983. At no time do I desire to see that trailer pass me. If you know anything of South and Central Florida you know the drivers you'll share the road with are the biggest non-driving idiots on Earth, great brakes are crucial to me...

 

[WarFabArmor]

That's awesome, wish I had your job! Here's precisely what's driving my need for improved braking here in Florida. I work as a GPS Tech or what Topcon calls us Pointmen. I spend my weekdays off-road in 4hi. I also routinely tow a UAV in an enclosed trailer that depending upon what sensor is attached can cost $$$$$$. The UAV is not mine I'm just responsible for it. I have noticed the brakes on my 2016 aren't that great but certainly better than those on my old 1983. At no time do I desire to see that trailer pass me. If you know anything of South and Central Florida you know the drivers you'll share the road with are the biggest non-driving idiots on Earth, great brakes are crucial to me...

I avoid the south. Humidity and me don't get along. Despite how good the sweet tea is. (although I may be in Tennessee and Georgia soon Lord help me).
For what it's worth I don't think you and I have to agree precisely on what is or is not a correct setup, nor do I think that either one of us is more correct or wrong than the other. That's the beauty of the board is the different experiences and backgrounds to offer different insight and folks choose what they want. I just know a lot of people see drilled and slotted on cars that are pushed to the absolute limit and get swapped or maintenanced more often than people open the door on their car. Those appearances by high end parts on what are supposed to be high in cars on the street make it seem like they are a viable upgrade, when realistically even the owners of those higher performance cars won't push the car to the limit of needing those brake setups or suspension setups that folks may see. A lot of it is vehicle weight and other setups that can change the way the brakes work without changing the brakes, that people don't think about or look at. Just trying to throw in all the other crazy tangibles that get overlooked, because they're hard to overlook when you're broke down and don't have a Chase vehicle to come unscrew your situation. Which is never a good day.

 

[SeaMac]

Oh I couldn't agree more! This area is full of $100k+ trucks all blinged out that oddly never get dirty. I don't see the point in that. I'm not one to fall for the bling I do however believe in sound mechanical principals that are proven, race proven never hurts either.

As for Tennessee, whereabouts are you thinking? I'm a Native Floridian and I'm about sick of this state. My GF and I have been looking at property in and around Knoxville. A good friend has property in Crossville and another good friend literally just moved he and his family outside of Nashville. Tennessee is a beautiful state and the people are a whole order of different than any state I've been to, in a distinctly positive way. I'll be -hopefully- retiring in a few short years and Florida is NOT where I intend to remain.

Back to brakes, unfortunately none of my trailers have their own brakes so a TBC won't help all braking has to be done by my truck....

 

[WarFabArmor]

Oh I couldn't agree more! This area is full of $100k+ trucks all blinged out that oddly never get dirty. I don't see the point in that. I'm not one to fall for the bling I do however believe in sound mechanical principals that are proven, race proven never hurts either.

As for Tennessee, whereabouts are you thinking? I'm a Native Floridian and I'm about sick of this state. My GF and I have been looking at property in and around Knoxville. A good friend has property in Crossville and another good friend literally just moved he and his family outside of Nashville. Tennessee is a beautiful state and the people are a whole order of different than any state I've been to, in a distinctly positive way. I'll be -hopefully- retiring in a few short years and Florida is NOT where I intend to remain.

Back to brakes, unfortunately none of my trailers have their own brakes so a TBC won't help all braking has to be done by my truck....

Oh I won't be living there, just possibly running some hot shot out that way. I think the best current example of people getting mixed up in that is the SRT8 Grand Cherokees or trackhawk Grand Cherokees. They perform great and are a total hoot on the track, but 90% of owners complain in endlessly because of the amount of brake noise and brake dust and the expense involved in replacing brakes. A lot of those owners have done a wheel treatment, I'm not sure what it is to be honest, that makes it a little bit easier to clean the brake dust off. After the first 10 or 15,000 mi that stuff is cooked on pretty good. And most of them will never drive that the way it's built for. But it sure looks cool,

 

[SeaMac]

Well, enjoy some TN/GA sweet tea when you're there. That friend I mentioned who races rally also owns Porsche 911 4s with the ceramic brake option. You should hear him bellyache when it comes time for brakes. If you can buy it you should be able to maintain it has always been my motto.

I try to keep my Tacoma as non-attention grabbing as possible. What it can do and what's "under the hood" so to speak is no one else's business and I chose Quicksand not because it looks like FDE or to be cool but because it looks like the dirt I spend my days driving in, it always looks clean even when it's filthy.

Well, it's been a pleasure and certainly informative. We should do this again on another topic though. How to make side steps, air reservoirs and sliders look like the factory tubular side steps on my truck now. Now that's a worthy topic for fresh sun brewed sweet tea...

 

[WarFabArmor]

Well, enjoy some TN/GA sweet tea when you're there. That friend I mentioned who races rally also owns Porsche 911 4s with the ceramic brake option. You should hear him bellyache when it comes time for brakes. If you can buy it you should be able to maintain it has always been my motto.

I try to keep my Tacoma as non-attention grabbing as possible. What it can do and what's "under the hood" so to speak is no one else's business and I chose Quicksand not because it looks like FDE or to be cool but because it looks like the dirt I spend my days driving in, it always looks clean even when it's filthy.

Well, it's been a pleasure and certainly informative. We should do this again on another topic though. How to make side steps, air reservoirs and sliders look like the factory tubular side steps on my truck now. Now that's a worthy topic for fresh sun brewed sweet tea...

M m m m m m m m m m m... Sun brewed sweet tea. Nothing like watching your diabetes be made in the sun. Haha. I'm always up for a good chat, especially when people don't get all crazy ego about it and just share info and experiences. Helps everybody in the end.

 

[SeaMac]

Too funny!